garden security.

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:54:43 -0000, "Alan Walker"

Post by Alan Walker
I mentioned the problem to a friend and the next day he knocked on my
door with a roll of razor wire. I don't want coils of wire
everywhere but I thought it would inconvenience anybody coming over
the fence if I were to run a single strand of wire along the fence
and round the edge of my garage.
I am aware that the wire can inflict a nasty cut but my intention was
to put a sign clearly on the fence along the lines of "Caution - Dog
& Razor Wire, Please Use Front Enterance" making, hopefully, my
property a less convenient target for the opportunist criminal.

No, you may not do as you suggest. You may not do something that is
deliberately intended to inflict GBH on a person who is merely
trespassing. Should anyone be injured on the razor wire, you could be
in for a serious criminal charge.

You might also consider that the person injured could be a kid
attempting to retrieve a ball accidentally kicked into your property,
and an unlucky encounter with razor wire could open an artery and
cause death.

Entering your garden without permission is not of itself a criminal
offence. It is the civil offence of trespass.

--
Cynic

Alan Walker

2003-11-05 20:50:15 UTC

Post by Cynic
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:54:43 -0000, "Alan Walker"

No, you may not do as you suggest. You may not do something that is
deliberately intended to inflict GBH on a person who is merely
trespassing. Should anyone be injured on the razor wire, you could be
in for a serious criminal charge.
You might also consider that the person injured could be a kid
attempting to retrieve a ball accidentally kicked into your property,
and an unlucky encounter with razor wire could open an artery and
cause death.

I think, in the end, the risk of hurting some kid innocently retrieving a
ball's the one that decides it. Wonder what spikey bushes B&Q have in stock
?

Post by Cynic
Entering your garden without permission is not of itself a criminal
offence. It is the civil offence of trespass.

I understand, but I would like to take some action to deter people from
entering nonetheless. Measures discussed elsewhere in this thread do now
seem much more sensible. I want to protect my property, not to hurt
anybody.

Alan Walker

Fat Freddy's Cat

2003-11-06 00:42:19 UTC

Post by Cynic
Entering your garden without permission is not of itself a criminal
offence. It is the civil offence of trespass.
--
Cynic

And the local police told me that if anyone hurt themselves on the carpet
gripper rods I put up on my fence that there is *no* criminal offence
committed, but that I may be sued in a civil action.

They said to go ahead and do it and I did.

g.

Tim

2003-11-06 09:27:43 UTC

Post by Cynic
On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:54:43 -0000, "Alan Walker"

Not entirely true. There is a height where it may be assumed that it would
be regarded unreasonable to climb. I thought it was above hand-height
(8ft?). I note that many government establishments have razor wire but
again these are high fences an there is a notice every 10ft or so warning
you of razor wire.

I also see the increase of vandal paint - again warning notices are
prevalent.

Andrew

2003-11-05 18:52:14 UTC

If you are that paranoid, fine, fit razor wire- it will do you absolutely no
good whatever.

I suggest you put up prickly hedges all around your garden rather than razor
wire. They deter, rather than injure- if somebody is THAT desperate they
will simply bypass the wire/fence.

If there is a concrete or paved hardstanding around your house, remove it.
Replace it with loose gravel- it rattles enormously loudly if you walk over
it, certainly enough to wake up any lying dogs sleeping inside.

Fit window locks on the ground floor, and ensure that your window units
cannot simply be popped out from the outside- a lot of cheaper ones can.

Fit floodlights with motion sensors which only pick up anybody close to the
house- what do you care if they climb into the far end of your garden?

Get a couple of cats, and train them to c*** on the lawn- believe me, there
is nothing worse.

Goldfish are also good, at least ponds are- could you see how deep a pond
was in the dark? No, you'd walk around it. That restricts your access, so
any visitor has to walk the way YOU want them to.

And one final point- giving the impression of "serious security," as you put
it, simply serves to convince that you have something to protect.

Alan Walker

2003-11-05 20:46:52 UTC

Post by Andrew
If you are that paranoid, fine, fit razor wire- it will do you
absolutely no good whatever.
I suggest you put up prickly hedges all around your garden rather
than razor wire. They deter, rather than injure- if somebody is THAT
desperate they will simply bypass the wire/fence.

Excellent idea.

Post by Andrew
If there is a concrete or paved hardstanding around your house,
remove it. Replace it with loose gravel- it rattles enormously loudly
if you walk over it, certainly enough to wake up any lying dogs
sleeping inside.

Can't remove the concrete as we're renting, might be able to do something
with gravel on path though.

Post by Andrew
Fit window locks on the ground floor, and ensure that your window
units cannot simply be popped out from the outside- a lot of cheaper
ones can.

Not a problem, top quality lock all round already.

Post by Andrew
Fit floodlights with motion sensors which only pick up anybody close
to the house- what do you care if they climb into the far end of your
garden?

The idea was more to scare people off and alert me to their presence as a
light at the bottom off the garden can be clearly seen from the rooms we use
most.

Post by Andrew
Get a couple of cats, and train them to c*** on the lawn- believe me,
there is nothing worse.

Bottom few yards of the garden's the dog's toilet, a doberman can produce
far more than a cat.

Post by Andrew
Goldfish are also good, at least ponds are- could you see how deep a
pond was in the dark? No, you'd walk around it. That restricts your
access, so any visitor has to walk the way YOU want them to.

Probably not practical, but I can probably manage access with the prickly
bushes you mentioned earlier.

Post by Andrew
And one final point- giving the impression of "serious security," as
you put it, simply serves to convince that you have something to
protect.

I suppose so, but I don't want to be the only house around with no obvious
protection. Although it's otherwise a lovely neighbourhood a lot of houses
seem to have signs announcing guard dogs on their back fences.

I think, in the end, the risk of hurting some kid innocently retrieving a
ball's the one that decides it. Wonder what spikey bushes B&Q have in stock
?

Alan Walker

CapStick

2003-11-06 02:16:01 UTC

Post by Andrew
If you are that paranoid, fine, fit razor wire- it will do you absolutely no
good whatever.
I suggest you put up prickly hedges all around your garden rather than razor

Pyracantha Works a treat

Flowers in summer berries in winter
Can be trained into any shape
Prickly or what

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INRI

2003-11-05 19:55:09 UTC

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Hash: SHA1
I have a 6' fence around my garden and a couple of times recently
I've caught people in the garden, both times seeing only legs
disappearing over the fence.
Most of my life I've relied on locking my doors at night and the
presence of a doberman in the house and not worried about security.
I know nothing can be made totally secure but I'd like to take a few
simple steps to deter the casual thief.
The garden's not very big but my garage intersects it making it
difficult to get cover of all potential entry points with
motion-detecting floodlights. I'm not too concerned about securing
the garage itself as it's full of wood and boxes.
I mentioned the problem to a friend and the next day he knocked on my
door with a roll of razor wire. I don't want coils of wire
everywhere but I thought it would inconvenience anybody coming over
the fence if I were to run a single strand of wire along the fence
and round the edge of my garage.
I am aware that the wire can inflict a nasty cut but my intention was
to put a sign clearly on the fence along the lines of "Caution - Dog
& Razor Wire, Please Use Front Enterance" making, hopefully, my
property a less convenient target for the opportunist criminal.
My question is, where do I stand legally in doing this ? I have no
intention to hide the wire to cause anybody to be hurt, but I feel it
gives the impression of serious security.
Alan Walker
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You can use that slimy smelly non setting paint
around the top of the fence, it stains the skin for
at least a week, but does no harm.
Ensure that people cannot come into contact
with it accidentally, otherwise it defeats the object.

Mr plod should bea able to identify any of the local
yobs that are marked.

If a ball comes over into the garden ecourage the
youngsters to knock on the door and ask for it's
return.

--
INRI
--------

flop

2003-11-05 21:21:18 UTC

I have no personal experience of them but there are Intruder Deterents
available.

For example:

Screwfix.com

http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=66936&id=11046

Hope this helps and best of luck

flop

Bug

2003-11-05 21:46:54 UTC

Post by flop
I have no personal experience of them but there are Intruder Deterents
available.
Screwfix.com
http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=66936&id=11046
Hope this helps and best of luck

Or one of these.....

http://globalcorp.com/gsd/puppies.htm

anonnymis - and illliterrit

2003-11-05 22:32:18 UTC

Im in a similar situation to you, my house stands in its own grounds
of over 1/4 of an acre, we have a wall surrounding the property
covered in "anti climb" paint. A while ago someone tried to pinch my
RangeRover, luckily my dog woke me up when she heard a noise and the
thiefs disappeared. The very next day i had infrared detectors place
right round the house, connected to sirens. These are triggered
whenever anyone comes within 20 metres of my house.

These are a great deterrent, and work brilliantly, however the
downside is that sometimes i am woken up in the middle of the night
with a false alarm, generally a cat or a fox, this maybe happens once
a month.

Bit of an inconvenience when this happens, but i know my house is
safe, and so are my cars.

Guy Fawkes

2003-11-06 01:10:11 UTC

we "had" a similar problem a week after moving in, some twat stole the
girl's pushbike.... 24 hours later an industrial sized pack of #7 fish
hooks had been nailgunned to the wall at appropriate intervals, I then made
a point of telling every neighbour I could see what had been done....

the security light hasn't gone one once since... and I haven't even had to
wire the hooks up to 25Kv

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anonnymis - and illliterrit

2003-11-06 09:40:23 UTC

we "had" a similar problem a week after moving in, some twat stole the
girl's pushbike.... 24 hours later an industrial sized pack of #7 fish
hooks had been nailgunned to the wall at appropriate intervals, I then made
a point of telling every neighbour I could see what had been done....
the security light hasn't gone one once since... and I haven't even had to
wire the hooks up to 25Kv

You cant do that man, bloody hell.

However, should you ever be so unfortunate as to EVER catch a "fish"
in this way, would you please post some pictures of the damage caused
somewhere on the net. :)

I just cant get the impression of some anti social yob caught on one
of your fishhooks out of my mind, effective solution, but illegal i
would guess.

Alan Walker

2003-11-06 15:40:54 UTC

we "had" a similar problem a week after moving in, some twat stole
the girl's pushbike.... 24 hours later an industrial sized pack of
#7 fish hooks had been nailgunned to the wall at appropriate
intervals, I then made a point of telling every neighbour I could
see what had been done....
the security light hasn't gone one once since... and I haven't even
had to wire the hooks up to 25Kv

You cant do that man, bloody hell.
However, should you ever be so unfortunate as to EVER catch a "fish"
in this way, would you please post some pictures of the damage caused
somewhere on the net. :)
I just cant get the impression of some anti social yob caught on one
of your fishhooks out of my mind, effective solution, but illegal i
would guess.

After all the advice posted here I've decided to go with prickly bushes and
put a motion-sensitive floodlight on the area round the back of the house.

As an additional and more visible detterent I'm going to get some prickly
branches from brambles and tie them in bunches along the top of the fence,
no danger of doing anybody any real harm, ideal for growing climbing plants
up the front and free.

I'm not really too worried about the garage, which has no contents of value.
The house has very good locks all round and double-glazed windows that won't
open enough to climb through.

If somebody enters my property when I'm not there and scares my dog enough
to bite them where do I stand ? She's not at all vicious, but if I'm not
there she sometimes gets a bit nervous.

Anyhow, I've now got some spare razor wire, anybody want it ?

Alan Walker

Tim

2003-11-06 17:23:55 UTC

Post by Alan Walker

we "had" a similar problem a week after moving in, some twat stole
the girl's pushbike.... 24 hours later an industrial sized pack of
#7 fish hooks had been nailgunned to the wall at appropriate
intervals, I then made a point of telling every neighbour I could
see what had been done....
the security light hasn't gone one once since... and I haven't even
had to wire the hooks up to 25Kv

You cant do that man, bloody hell.
However, should you ever be so unfortunate as to EVER catch a "fish"
in this way, would you please post some pictures of the damage caused
somewhere on the net. :)
I just cant get the impression of some anti social yob caught on one
of your fishhooks out of my mind, effective solution, but illegal i
would guess.

After all the advice posted here I've decided to go with prickly bushes and
put a motion-sensitive floodlight on the area round the back of the house.
As an additional and more visible detterent I'm going to get some prickly
branches from brambles and tie them in bunches along the top of the fence,
no danger of doing anybody any real harm, ideal for growing climbing plants
up the front and free.
I'm not really too worried about the garage, which has no contents of value.
The house has very good locks all round and double-glazed windows that won't
open enough to climb through.
If somebody enters my property when I'm not there and scares my dog enough
to bite them where do I stand ? She's not at all vicious, but if I'm not
there she sometimes gets a bit nervous.
Anyhow, I've now got some spare razor wire, anybody want it ?
Alan Walker

If she hasn't bitten anyone before then if a minor bite most likely get an
order to keep her under control. If there is ever a next time she'll be for
the chop so just give her to a friend and say she ran away. LOL.

BTW the best guard dogs are ones that make a lot of noise and keep backing
away.

Barry

2003-11-06 18:29:25 UTC

Post by Alan Walker
If somebody enters my property when I'm not there and scares my dog enough
to bite them where do I stand ? She's not at all vicious, but if I'm not
there she sometimes gets a bit nervous.
Anyhow, I've now got some spare razor wire, anybody want it ?
Alan Walker

I'm under the impression that a "beware of the dog" sign or similar, implies
that your dog *is* vicious. Thus if someone gets bitten, saying that they
were warned is not good enough, as the sign has admitted liability for the
dog. If it wasn't dangerous, why would you need the sign?

ianal, and am probably wrong :)

Arthur

2003-11-08 09:42:48 UTC

Post by Alan Walker
The house has very good locks all round and double-glazed windows that won't
open enough to climb through.

So what happens if you are home and there is a fire?

- Arthur

Chris Street

2003-11-06 18:47:34 UTC

we "had" a similar problem a week after moving in, some twat stole the
girl's pushbike.... 24 hours later an industrial sized pack of #7 fish
hooks had been nailgunned to the wall at appropriate intervals, I then made
a point of telling every neighbour I could see what had been done....
the security light hasn't gone one once since... and I haven't even had to
wire the hooks up to 25Kv

You cant do that man, bloody hell.
However, should you ever be so unfortunate as to EVER catch a "fish"
in this way, would you please post some pictures of the damage caused
somewhere on the net. :)
I just cant get the impression of some anti social yob caught on one
of your fishhooks out of my mind, effective solution, but illegal i
would guess.

Not forgeeting they would be doing the silly smoking dance from 25kv -
and being unable to disengage from the hooks....>:->

--
79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
The other 42% are made up later on.
In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.

Alan Walker

2003-11-06 20:08:58 UTC

Post by Chris Street

we "had" a similar problem a week after moving in, some twat stole
the girl's pushbike.... 24 hours later an industrial sized pack of
#7 fish hooks had been nailgunned to the wall at appropriate
intervals, I then made a point of telling every neighbour I could
see what had been done....
the security light hasn't gone one once since... and I haven't even
had to wire the hooks up to 25Kv

You cant do that man, bloody hell.
However, should you ever be so unfortunate as to EVER catch a "fish"
in this way, would you please post some pictures of the damage caused
somewhere on the net. :)
I just cant get the impression of some anti social yob caught on one
of your fishhooks out of my mind, effective solution, but illegal i
would guess.

Not forgeeting they would be doing the silly smoking dance from 25kv -
and being unable to disengage from the hooks....>:->

I seem to recall when I was at university somebody had a gadget that gave a
really painful shock from quite a small power supply. High frequency maybe
?

--
Alan Walker

Gavin Whittaker

2003-11-07 09:56:41 UTC

In alt.uk.law Alan Walker <***@hotmail.com> writted:

:> Not forgeeting they would be doing the silly smoking dance from 25kv -
:> and being unable to disengage from the hooks....>:->

: I seem to recall when I was at university somebody had a gadget that gave a
: really painful shock from quite a small power supply. High frequency maybe
: ?

High voltage, very low current supply.

High voltages are not what kills, it's the current that kills. A body can
cope with a million volts, PROVIDING that the current is below approx.
0.05Amps. OTOH, a body tends to cope with 230 volts and 0.1 amps by ceasing
all biological functioning. It's the principle behind electric animal stock
fencing.
The difference is analogous to that between being hit by a raindrop (low
current) from 200 feet (high voltage), and being hit by a swimming pool
(high current) from 30 feet (low voltage). The former tickles, the
latter does damage.

ATB, Gavin

Dan Holdsworth

2003-11-06 21:55:57 UTC

On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:54:43 -0000, Alan Walker

I've experienced something similar, with the back yard of my terraced
house. When I first moved in, I'd leave the gate to the yard unbolted
but shut, and for a while, there was no hassle.

Then one night some twerp tried (unsuccessfully) to force the back door;
a hiding to nothing given how secure it was. So, I locked the gate.

Later, I noticed some tyke who'd managed to kick a ball into the yard
simply vault over the wall without even asking, get the ball, and exit
throught the gate, unbolting it on the way out.

So, I then coated the top of the wall and the top of the gate with a
good thick layer of anti-burglar paint, renewing it as it soaked into
the concrete. [1]

Now, the strange thing is after that nobody's tried to climb in, and not
a single kid has "accidentally" lost a ball, either. Nor have I had
mothers demanding compensation for their lackwitted offspring coming in
plastered in black paint, either. The only hassle now is the odd trail
of feline footprints from yet another thick local moggy learning what
wet paint is...

So, I'd recommend painting the top of the fence first with gloss paint
to make in impermeable, then with a good thick layer of anti-burglar
paint, and see what happens. Odds are the local idiots will give it
up as a bad job.

[1] Yes, I know I should've sealed the concrete first. I was in a hurry
at the time, and didn't bother.

--
Dan Holdsworth PhD ***@ntlworld.com
By caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, By the beans of Java
do thoughts acquire speed, hands acquire shaking, the shaking
becomes a warning, By caffeine alone do I set my mind in motion

spacey

2003-11-07 18:40:59 UTC